Monday, August 15, 2005
The Great Kippah Debate Continued
Note: This post has been edited for readability, nothing is being removed and the changes will be in read.
Anonymous, much as I expected, responded on Heshy's blog yet again. The reasoning behind his response is that I was making an ad hominem attack because I took his/her argument, as detailed in a separate post, about knit kippot being anti-Torah and made the exact same statements about people who where black velvet kippot and the 'uniform of Hashem's Army' as they put it.
The first, as I have repeated pointed out in that discussion and in my previous post, the type of attacks that are being made are simply on the subject at hand. The '3 step argument' that was returned at Anonymous involved only changing the words that needed changed to make an identical argument about him/her and theirs.
By Littlewolf's 'rule', *all* respected poskim and rebbeim over the last century are 'arrogant Jews'. People in your position always resort to the 'well they wore different clothes 300 years ago' argument. But the truth is, that's irrelevant.
Anonymous opens his/her response with these statements. Let me address this entire statement quickly. My 'rule' is not a rule at all but a use of Anonymous' own argument style. I never said I believed the argument to be true. I realized I never said I did not believe them to be true here, thought I did imply such at the time and in the other post on this blog. The second statement about can not be irrelevant if the quote you are going to go to is Rambam for the source of your clothing statements. Rambam did not wear the 'uniform' that is being espoused by Heshy and Anonymous, if you are going to use that as the basis of your argument then when the clothing you wear came in to fashion is entirely relavant. The Rambam would have worn Moorish style clothing similar to what modern Arabs wear. If I am going to dress as the sages, wouldn't dressing as say the Rambam be just as good of an argument as someone who was a Torah scholar 100 or 200 years ago.
Our Torah sages set an example for how we should live and interact with the world TODAY, not back then. If you are looking for how to interact today, dress for today, if you are looking to dress as a Torah Sage, why limit yourself to a single style of dress. This is a little bit of a silly argument after you just got done telling me that I was silly for bring up the relative age of the dress code you adhere to.
I have said nothing which could be construed as antipathy for other Jews. I am simply stating that people who wear knit yarmulkes are not going in the ways of our Torah sages. This statement appears to me to be self defeating and I will not address it beyond that. I have decided that this needs further addressing. Anon the simple fact that you are attacking other Jews for the type of kippah they wear, at least in some peoples mind's, would be a defining quality of having antipathy for other Jews.
The Rambam says explicitly that we are obligated to emulate our Torah sages. And since they all wear black yarmulkes, we are therefore obligated to adopt what Heshy called this 'uniform' as we are, figuratively, all members in army of Hashem. As I have already addressed these statements in my first paragraph of response I will say no more about it. Once again I feel the need to add something here. Thefact that the Rambam says we are to emulate our Torah Sages is of great interest to me as this is one of two basis that Anon and Heshy have used over and over. I would like to say several things here. 1. The modern Torah Sages (last several hunderd years) have worn black kippot, what our ancient sages wore is not known. And the 'uniform' that is discussed over and over is one of the points that I find interesting. If someone could speculate for me, as I don't know the answer, who was the GREATEST TORAH SAGE of our history I would be curious. It would be a much more compelling argument to dress like that sage, in my opinion.
Littlewolf, as you bandy about accusations of bias, I think you should carefully consider that you are the only one who has made ad hominem attacks against our Torah sages (e.g. 'arrogant') and, l'havdil, me. I understand you have a personal interest in wearing your knit yarmulke, but you must be able to appreciate the fact that your are following your own path, not the holy path prescribed by our contemporary Torah sages. I will address this final section dispite the fact that I have already discussed a couple of the issues. I have never said I wasn't biased, in fact I firmly believe that everyone has a bias, I do believe I am addressing these issues in as unbiased a manner as I can. Yes I have a 'interest' in wearing a knit kippah, and my interest in wearing the knit kippah is in fact proof of why the whole argument about knit kippot is ridiculus. (For those who have not read the entire discussion at Heshy's House, the knit kippah that I tend to wear was my father's kippah and is one of about 7 things (books aside) that I have of my father's) I do not see from this discussion how a knit kippah is 'off the Torah path.' The only fact I have gotten from this discussion, as it went a long, is that a specific community of Jews have made a decision that the knit kippah has some given significance, THEY have given them (knit kippot) this significance, I did not, and do not agree. How this, wearing a knit kippot and disagree with Heshy and Anon, makes me a 'bad' Jew is an (false was orginally inserted) argument which, dispite Anonymous' repeated statements he has, (should) does not appear to me to be either based in Torah or Halakhah, but on a communities bias about a political subject, nothing more nothing less.
I will strive in the future to not need to do this much editing in the aftermath of a posting. It was a re-reading of the post that had me realizing how unreadable it was. If there are other post like this, now or in the future, I am very sorry.
Sincerely,
LW Reposted as of 6:38 EDT 8/16/05
Anonymous, much as I expected, responded on Heshy's blog yet again. The reasoning behind his response is that I was making an ad hominem attack because I took his/her argument, as detailed in a separate post, about knit kippot being anti-Torah and made the exact same statements about people who where black velvet kippot and the 'uniform of Hashem's Army' as they put it.
The first, as I have repeated pointed out in that discussion and in my previous post, the type of attacks that are being made are simply on the subject at hand. The '3 step argument' that was returned at Anonymous involved only changing the words that needed changed to make an identical argument about him/her and theirs.
By Littlewolf's 'rule', *all* respected poskim and rebbeim over the last century are 'arrogant Jews'. People in your position always resort to the 'well they wore different clothes 300 years ago' argument. But the truth is, that's irrelevant.
Anonymous opens his/her response with these statements. Let me address this entire statement quickly. My 'rule' is not a rule at all but a use of Anonymous' own argument style. I never said I believed the argument to be true. I realized I never said I did not believe them to be true here, thought I did imply such at the time and in the other post on this blog. The second statement about can not be irrelevant if the quote you are going to go to is Rambam for the source of your clothing statements. Rambam did not wear the 'uniform' that is being espoused by Heshy and Anonymous, if you are going to use that as the basis of your argument then when the clothing you wear came in to fashion is entirely relavant. The Rambam would have worn Moorish style clothing similar to what modern Arabs wear. If I am going to dress as the sages, wouldn't dressing as say the Rambam be just as good of an argument as someone who was a Torah scholar 100 or 200 years ago.
Our Torah sages set an example for how we should live and interact with the world TODAY, not back then. If you are looking for how to interact today, dress for today, if you are looking to dress as a Torah Sage, why limit yourself to a single style of dress. This is a little bit of a silly argument after you just got done telling me that I was silly for bring up the relative age of the dress code you adhere to.
I have said nothing which could be construed as antipathy for other Jews. I am simply stating that people who wear knit yarmulkes are not going in the ways of our Torah sages. This statement appears to me to be self defeating and I will not address it beyond that. I have decided that this needs further addressing. Anon the simple fact that you are attacking other Jews for the type of kippah they wear, at least in some peoples mind's, would be a defining quality of having antipathy for other Jews.
The Rambam says explicitly that we are obligated to emulate our Torah sages. And since they all wear black yarmulkes, we are therefore obligated to adopt what Heshy called this 'uniform' as we are, figuratively, all members in army of Hashem. As I have already addressed these statements in my first paragraph of response I will say no more about it. Once again I feel the need to add something here. Thefact that the Rambam says we are to emulate our Torah Sages is of great interest to me as this is one of two basis that Anon and Heshy have used over and over. I would like to say several things here. 1. The modern Torah Sages (last several hunderd years) have worn black kippot, what our ancient sages wore is not known. And the 'uniform' that is discussed over and over is one of the points that I find interesting. If someone could speculate for me, as I don't know the answer, who was the GREATEST TORAH SAGE of our history I would be curious. It would be a much more compelling argument to dress like that sage, in my opinion.
Littlewolf, as you bandy about accusations of bias, I think you should carefully consider that you are the only one who has made ad hominem attacks against our Torah sages (e.g. 'arrogant') and, l'havdil, me. I understand you have a personal interest in wearing your knit yarmulke, but you must be able to appreciate the fact that your are following your own path, not the holy path prescribed by our contemporary Torah sages. I will address this final section dispite the fact that I have already discussed a couple of the issues. I have never said I wasn't biased, in fact I firmly believe that everyone has a bias, I do believe I am addressing these issues in as unbiased a manner as I can. Yes I have a 'interest' in wearing a knit kippah, and my interest in wearing the knit kippah is in fact proof of why the whole argument about knit kippot is ridiculus. (For those who have not read the entire discussion at Heshy's House, the knit kippah that I tend to wear was my father's kippah and is one of about 7 things (books aside) that I have of my father's) I do not see from this discussion how a knit kippah is 'off the Torah path.' The only fact I have gotten from this discussion, as it went a long, is that a specific community of Jews have made a decision that the knit kippah has some given significance, THEY have given them (knit kippot) this significance, I did not, and do not agree. How this, wearing a knit kippot and disagree with Heshy and Anon, makes me a 'bad' Jew is an (false was orginally inserted) argument which, dispite Anonymous' repeated statements he has, (should) does not appear to me to be either based in Torah or Halakhah, but on a communities bias about a political subject, nothing more nothing less.
I will strive in the future to not need to do this much editing in the aftermath of a posting. It was a re-reading of the post that had me realizing how unreadable it was. If there are other post like this, now or in the future, I am very sorry.
Sincerely,
LW Reposted as of 6:38 EDT 8/16/05
// posted by Little Wolf @ Monday, August 15, 2005 
Comments:
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Oh please. I guess it's very easy for you to feel you've won when you simply label every argument either 'self-defeating' or 'self-invalidating'. That's a courageous stance.
The idea that we should emulate contemporary poskim and sages on issues of contemporary concern seems pretty intuitive. [While we certainly will emulate *all* of our sages on issues that remain constant] Changing contemporary society calls for a unique Jewish approach in every generation. And that's precisely why G-d has provided us with Moshe Rabeinu's for each generation, to guide us in our mission as Jews. [So obviously we don't dress like Rambam now -- if we were living in his times then we would have (of course you presumably wouldn't since you seem to know better than our sages how to dress)]
You've really not addressed any of my substantive points for all your babbling and ranting. You have not explained how it is that you know better than our Torah sages how to interact with the goyishe world. You have not explained why we are not required to follow the example of our Torah sages.
Why haven't you explaiend these things? Here's my hypothesis: you can't. Traditional Judaism requires that we emulate our Torah leaders. And yet, for your own personal reasons, you choose not to. The arrogance of your position is astounding.
The idea that we should emulate contemporary poskim and sages on issues of contemporary concern seems pretty intuitive. [While we certainly will emulate *all* of our sages on issues that remain constant] Changing contemporary society calls for a unique Jewish approach in every generation. And that's precisely why G-d has provided us with Moshe Rabeinu's for each generation, to guide us in our mission as Jews. [So obviously we don't dress like Rambam now -- if we were living in his times then we would have (of course you presumably wouldn't since you seem to know better than our sages how to dress)]
You've really not addressed any of my substantive points for all your babbling and ranting. You have not explained how it is that you know better than our Torah sages how to interact with the goyishe world. You have not explained why we are not required to follow the example of our Torah sages.
Why haven't you explaiend these things? Here's my hypothesis: you can't. Traditional Judaism requires that we emulate our Torah leaders. And yet, for your own personal reasons, you choose not to. The arrogance of your position is astounding.
# posted by 
: Tue Aug 16, 08:12:00 AM 2005
: Tue Aug 16, 08:12:00 AM 2005
From one anonymus to another ...
Emulating our sages ... is this in regards to clothing only? Certainly not,
this does not a religous Jew make.
Is it important to dress tznuit ?
Without doubt for men as well as women.
I don't personally know how the Rambam dressed either,as I was not alive then then.It would seem safe to assume he dressed in a style much like the arabs around him.I can't say for sure he wore a black velvet kippa or knit OR a turban. I find that this matters little. ( just my opinion )
What does matter , in my estimation ,
is how we as Jews conduct ourselves.
Both in public and private.
A black hat , jacket,velvet kippa...
this is indeed an excellent way for a Jewish man to dress.But it is NOT the only way,...meaning "one size does NOT fit all".
How many times that I have been in a minyan to hear men talking during tefillah,kriat Torah,Kaddish even kedusha! The majority of the time it is men in the "uniform" or in a streimel.
Does their attire make this acceptable?
Take note I seldom am part of an Ashkenazi minyan.Please don't think that I'm insinuating that the Temani are better than anybody else.No one is better or worse please let someone else
say these things.(and sadly they do)
My grandfather never,to my knowledge,
wore a velvet kippa. Does this somehow make him anti Torah? Did it mean he was arrogant?...
I cannot understand in full why you would assume that Little Wolf is arrogant or that he is choosing not to follow in the path of our sages.
If it is merely his choice of kippa then I plead with you to rethink this.
My neshama,his, or YOURS is NOT dependent upon the kippa that we wear.
Please understand that I do not seek an argument.I simply want us as Jews to find more reasons to love ,accept and care about one another.
Snubbing a fellow Jew?... Why?...
There exists vicious people in the world whom think that we should all die.
Perhaps pulling together in unity is a good idea.
Do you wear a velvet kippah? knit ball cap , Football helmet...(kidding)
Either way I love you regardless.
As individuals sometimes we may not get along so well. But as Jews we MUST
love eachother.
Emulating our sages ... is this in regards to clothing only? Certainly not,
this does not a religous Jew make.
Is it important to dress tznuit ?
Without doubt for men as well as women.
I don't personally know how the Rambam dressed either,as I was not alive then then.It would seem safe to assume he dressed in a style much like the arabs around him.I can't say for sure he wore a black velvet kippa or knit OR a turban. I find that this matters little. ( just my opinion )
What does matter , in my estimation ,
is how we as Jews conduct ourselves.
Both in public and private.
A black hat , jacket,velvet kippa...
this is indeed an excellent way for a Jewish man to dress.But it is NOT the only way,...meaning "one size does NOT fit all".
How many times that I have been in a minyan to hear men talking during tefillah,kriat Torah,Kaddish even kedusha! The majority of the time it is men in the "uniform" or in a streimel.
Does their attire make this acceptable?
Take note I seldom am part of an Ashkenazi minyan.Please don't think that I'm insinuating that the Temani are better than anybody else.No one is better or worse please let someone else
say these things.(and sadly they do)
My grandfather never,to my knowledge,
wore a velvet kippa. Does this somehow make him anti Torah? Did it mean he was arrogant?...
I cannot understand in full why you would assume that Little Wolf is arrogant or that he is choosing not to follow in the path of our sages.
If it is merely his choice of kippa then I plead with you to rethink this.
My neshama,his, or YOURS is NOT dependent upon the kippa that we wear.
Please understand that I do not seek an argument.I simply want us as Jews to find more reasons to love ,accept and care about one another.
Snubbing a fellow Jew?... Why?...
There exists vicious people in the world whom think that we should all die.
Perhaps pulling together in unity is a good idea.
Do you wear a velvet kippah? knit ball cap , Football helmet...(kidding)
Either way I love you regardless.
As individuals sometimes we may not get along so well. But as Jews we MUST
love eachother.
# posted by : Tue Aug 16, 09:46:00 AM 2005
: Tue Aug 16, 09:46:00 AM 2005
Anon 2:
I would like to thank you for making a point that I have been trying to make. And maybe much more successfully than I ever have been able to.
Anon 1:
I think you've been mis-interpreting things that I have said all along. And I believe you have done so solely with the intent of trying to create an issue. I have repeated the same things over and over, you continue to tell me that I am saying something that I am not. As you did on your previous post here. You are reading what you think I am saying and ignoring what I am really saying. Anon 2 fortunately has said in a better way than I have been able to, so is his position just as wrong, misguided, and non-Torah as mine.
The problem has been all along that you, or someone one listen to, has been convinced that a kippah of a certain material has a certain meaning that THEY disagree with. This has been explained as something to do with the Torah Sages. What I have been saying is that the explination makes no sense. It makes no sense because you are making a modern political statement, and then trying to find a way to support it so you pick a state made by the Rambam, take it out of context, and tell me that is the biblical support for it.
I don't agree with the idea that HaShem would have a problem with a material, because of something that is so clearly a justification for a political position.
Am I correct, I don't know, because I don't pretend to speak for HaShem. Are you correct, I don't know, but as you feel you can speak for HaShem, and have shown no genuine Torah or Scholarship reason for YOUR position why do I follow it. This whole discussion began when I asked Heshy for a firm position in either Torah or Halakhah for the concept of knit Kippot being a problem. So far the only response I have gotten, as I have said before, is that you feel they are bad because they are associated with Zionism and for some reason you feel Zionism is a bad thing.
Fine, but this is not Halakhah or Torah. Unless you really feel you have more to add that is not a repetition of this same opinion of the community in which you grew up, I feel no reason to continue this discussion. As Anon 2 said, my goal is to bring Jews together, as I have said in other posts on this blog. And this discussion is really about the opposite.
Shalom
I would like to thank you for making a point that I have been trying to make. And maybe much more successfully than I ever have been able to.
Anon 1:
I think you've been mis-interpreting things that I have said all along. And I believe you have done so solely with the intent of trying to create an issue. I have repeated the same things over and over, you continue to tell me that I am saying something that I am not. As you did on your previous post here. You are reading what you think I am saying and ignoring what I am really saying. Anon 2 fortunately has said in a better way than I have been able to, so is his position just as wrong, misguided, and non-Torah as mine.
The problem has been all along that you, or someone one listen to, has been convinced that a kippah of a certain material has a certain meaning that THEY disagree with. This has been explained as something to do with the Torah Sages. What I have been saying is that the explination makes no sense. It makes no sense because you are making a modern political statement, and then trying to find a way to support it so you pick a state made by the Rambam, take it out of context, and tell me that is the biblical support for it.
I don't agree with the idea that HaShem would have a problem with a material, because of something that is so clearly a justification for a political position.
Am I correct, I don't know, because I don't pretend to speak for HaShem. Are you correct, I don't know, but as you feel you can speak for HaShem, and have shown no genuine Torah or Scholarship reason for YOUR position why do I follow it. This whole discussion began when I asked Heshy for a firm position in either Torah or Halakhah for the concept of knit Kippot being a problem. So far the only response I have gotten, as I have said before, is that you feel they are bad because they are associated with Zionism and for some reason you feel Zionism is a bad thing.
Fine, but this is not Halakhah or Torah. Unless you really feel you have more to add that is not a repetition of this same opinion of the community in which you grew up, I feel no reason to continue this discussion. As Anon 2 said, my goal is to bring Jews together, as I have said in other posts on this blog. And this discussion is really about the opposite.
Shalom
This is really getting frustrating responding to you. I give you a Torah source for emulating sages, you say I haven't given you a Torah source. What more can I do? I can only hold your hand for so long. The fundamental reason to wear a black yarmulke is to emulate Torah sages. [The whole discussion on Zionism was only to help give some rationale for why the Torah sages themselves don't wear knit yarmulkes]
You refuse to explain why you are not obligated in emulating our Torah sages, despite not only the explicit words of the Rambam, but also numerous comments throughout Shas. In fact, emulating our sages has been a key characteristic of modern Rabbinic Judaism.
You need to come to terms with your own arrogance that you know better than the sages. And you should also put aside your irritation with Heshy's unapologetic style. Because of your inability to do that, you have conflated the issue of whether it is appropriate to criticize other Jews with the issue of how we should dress. By muddling the issues, you have completely avoided an intellectually honest assessment of your completely untenable opinion that Jews are under no obligation to follow in the material and spiritual ways of our Sages.
You refuse to explain why you are not obligated in emulating our Torah sages, despite not only the explicit words of the Rambam, but also numerous comments throughout Shas. In fact, emulating our sages has been a key characteristic of modern Rabbinic Judaism.
You need to come to terms with your own arrogance that you know better than the sages. And you should also put aside your irritation with Heshy's unapologetic style. Because of your inability to do that, you have conflated the issue of whether it is appropriate to criticize other Jews with the issue of how we should dress. By muddling the issues, you have completely avoided an intellectually honest assessment of your completely untenable opinion that Jews are under no obligation to follow in the material and spiritual ways of our Sages.
# posted by : Wed Aug 17, 09:59:00 AM 2005
: Wed Aug 17, 09:59:00 AM 2005
Anon:
The point I have been trying to make, and YOU seem to be missing, is that you have chose to emulate a select set of Torah Sages, NOT all Torah Sages. I do not feel that there is any arrogance in the belief that Judaism has an open-ness to it that goes back to biblical times.
Now to address the idea that you have given me a Torah source. You have not, you have given me a single quote from The Rambam.
I have said that I don't believe that emulating a specific set of Torah sages, while ignoring others, is the answer.
Now as to Heshy and his style. I have no problem with Heshy's style, I don't think it is doing what he thinks it is doing and have stated so in the past. The point I have made all along is that by taking a position that NOT everyone accepts as being the Truth (knit kippot = Zionism), that you are then making statements that are harmful to Jewish cohesiveness. I think it is also interesting that you are getting frustrated with 'trying' to teach me things. Try reading some of my other posts, in at least a later one I have discussed how I think my way through issues and even gave a thought process on the 'Uniform' of Hashem.
Finally I have never said that my position was 100% correct, un-like you and Heshy. I do not feel that I know the mind of HaShem, I do believe that I have as much right in Judaism to search for what HaShem is telling me with the guidance of those who know more.
You see, you keep accusing me of arrogance, but I do not see that it is arrogant to try to understand an issue from different angles and then work my way through them. This is obviously an open issue for many Jews, and for you, or Heshy, to say that someone else is off the 'path of true Judaism' because a the material of a Kippah, when they are wearing one, is true arrogance.
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The point I have been trying to make, and YOU seem to be missing, is that you have chose to emulate a select set of Torah Sages, NOT all Torah Sages. I do not feel that there is any arrogance in the belief that Judaism has an open-ness to it that goes back to biblical times.
Now to address the idea that you have given me a Torah source. You have not, you have given me a single quote from The Rambam.
I have said that I don't believe that emulating a specific set of Torah sages, while ignoring others, is the answer.
Now as to Heshy and his style. I have no problem with Heshy's style, I don't think it is doing what he thinks it is doing and have stated so in the past. The point I have made all along is that by taking a position that NOT everyone accepts as being the Truth (knit kippot = Zionism), that you are then making statements that are harmful to Jewish cohesiveness. I think it is also interesting that you are getting frustrated with 'trying' to teach me things. Try reading some of my other posts, in at least a later one I have discussed how I think my way through issues and even gave a thought process on the 'Uniform' of Hashem.
Finally I have never said that my position was 100% correct, un-like you and Heshy. I do not feel that I know the mind of HaShem, I do believe that I have as much right in Judaism to search for what HaShem is telling me with the guidance of those who know more.
You see, you keep accusing me of arrogance, but I do not see that it is arrogant to try to understand an issue from different angles and then work my way through them. This is obviously an open issue for many Jews, and for you, or Heshy, to say that someone else is off the 'path of true Judaism' because a the material of a Kippah, when they are wearing one, is true arrogance.
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